Curse

macdadg · Jun 07, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Ok, Anet has said that they has two concurrent teams working on subsequent chapters. One team is working on Chapter 3, and the other has just started working on Chapter 4.

What makes you think that these are the only programmers they have? Do you honestly think that a programmer is pulled off his/her team for a week/month to add mini pits weapons? They obviously have at least one more team working on things like this.

They probably have a dedicated team that works solely on the game engine for things such as trade improvements, chat filters, etc. I've read in a chatlog somewhere where they have a team working on holiday events. So by my count, they have at least 4 teams, all working on different aspects of the Guild Wars franchise.

They also have a large list of job openings, which means that as they find capable programmers, they are hiring more and more staff. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the improvements (storage/trading) we are all asking for are implemented before Chapter 3 is released. /optimism

generik · Jun 07, 2006, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

Less chapters and more content if you ask me there it would of been best to have more missions in prophecies.

More intellectual property for less money is essentially what you are saying. Nope, not gonna happen.

If Anet has it their way you have to apply your credit card on file and unlock each zone as you go along.

robrobrob · Jun 07, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Incomplete? Not quite. Severely lacking in areas where other games might not? Definitely.

The thing about Improved Storage and Improved Trade is not specifically that we don't have them yet. It's that we keep being fed the same spoonful of "we're working on it, it's a high priority," and yet there's nothing.

You read the quote, from AUGUST 2005 it's said that Auction Houses, or trade improvements in general, are "on high on our priority list." It's June 2006. 10 Months and still nothing? It's a f*cking joke. Their priority list seems to be the easier it is, the more important it is. They promise, and don't deliver. A lot of us are tired of this unfulfillment.

Muse of Shadows · Jun 07, 2006, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by CK0

We that dread Factions and its elements need a Savior, and that will come in the form of a rival game. Like agitated ants stuck in a bottle, they stay and complain because there is no similar alternative - no where to go. Once another game similar to original GuildWars rears its head, that is when things get better for all of us, the consumers. People have invested a lot into the game, and to break away so easily is difficult. They will be able to break away easier, if there was something to "fill the void". A rival game will also bring about competition and raise quality of both games.

Perhaps it is happening right now, since their are two teams. People have already vowed to buy only the odd numbered chapters. I know I will follow the same, if CH3 turns out to be anything similar to the quality of Prophecies. When it comes time, there will need to be a few guinea pigs to buy CH3, and let the GW fans know on how it fares. We all know we CANNOT trust online reviews, after having seen the dismal articles popping up about Factions. We cannot trust Gaile and her sales figures.

CH3 is really the final round. Whether ANET can redeem themselves stands here, and what major updates they say they will deliver. If they deliver a game that gives me the same feeling of disappointment as Factions did, all the while selling the game at the $50 price point, then I will know that it is time to move on, and will happily do so.

I agree fully with this. However, I have severe doubts with chapter 3, even as a last chance thing for arena net. 1 year is not nearly enough time to make a quality game under most circumstances, and I have recently begun to despise ArenaNet for a number of reasons.

Unfortuanty for me, I will probably be one of the ones purchasing chapter 3, however, if it is anything near what factions was, I am going to sell my account and quit GW for good, as I am shure many others will as well.

If ArenaNet/NCSoft keep up as they have been, I am shure they will loose far more money by releasing so many chapters than they would if they spent another 6 months or so on each, and made it decent. However, even with this it seems unlikely as Factions was supposed to have 1.5 years work behind it. How I see it, it is unlikely that the GW game will survive much longer.

If not for other P2P rpg's NCSoft has been releasing, I would guess the company would soon be dead due to the crap job they are doing with their updates/expansions. Yes, regardless of what they claim, future chapters are not stand-alone. Think about just how sh**ty factions would be if you where one of those who did not have and had never played prophecies. With prophecies, its crap, without, its probably nearly unplayable.

Ninna · Jun 07, 2006, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by robrobrob

You read the quote, from AUGUST 2005 it's said that Auction Houses, or trade improvements in general, are "on high on our priority list." It's June 2006

the same quote said that Obeserver Mode would be implemented 1st
- that happened a few months ago

TadaceAce · Jun 07, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

There is so much wrong with the gameplay in the first two chapters if they don't fix those up or have something extremely appetizing in Chapter 3 there is no way I'll buy it.

Ninna · Jun 07, 2006, 04:07 AM // 04:07

I know that ANET has thus far refused to comment WHEN trading will be improved

but I do recall Gaile hinting that Auction Houses would be happening very soon
- whether she mispoke, I dont know

can see Gailes ingame chat here
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=101081

Slainster · Jun 07, 2006, 07:34 AM // 07:34

this whole topic has got me really down.. I only started GW in August, and am still trying to finish\try out of a number of things. I havent really spent that much time in factions as yet, but reading all the posts, its getting me more and more down.. it seems like we have to rush through everything, and not really enjoy the content provided like with the original game. I find it pretty hard to allocate extra time to play with having to work all day, Ill probably barley finish Factions before the next ones out, and then I wont even have had time to do the fun stuff in the game. I agree with the general line of the thread.. 6 months seems to short an interval to do a release..

exodite · Jun 07, 2006, 07:54 AM // 07:54

GW prophecies kept me interested for an entire year! i was surprised at that there were times that i thought i'd quit but i didn't i stuck it out waiting for factions which was meant to be my saviour from bordom, but no it was crap it wasn't worth £50 i paid for the special ed box! the classes are below par i prefer the original 6. I loved gw i could farm all i wanted just random things to kill solo i don't care how many times i died, i made it to rank 3, i ran droks a few times i did everything in the game, i was playing from the start it was fun. Now i'm on WoW playing on trollbane in the european servers, i love my guild on wow its like the one on guild wars we had nice and chatty 16+ average age, not mature. But atm in guild wars its full of kids that want freebies all the time! that's one of the reasons i stopped wow in the first place.
ty for reading my mini rant!!

Edge Martinez · Jun 07, 2006, 08:16 AM // 08:16

When compared to games that may be similar, in terms of being online and RPG oriented, I view Guild Wars as the grass roots effort. The community, like this awesome site and the others like it, fills in alot of the voids like auction houses and such.

{NOTE: At this point in my post, there are so, so, so many questions I want to ask to y'all, and so many points I want to make, but am refraining so as not to be confrontational.}

I'll just leave it like this. Guild Wars just may not be the game for some people. The structure, the presentation, the system and the way things are released just may not coincide with what some folks are looking for in an online game. What some people see as broken, other people see as right on the mark. You just have to know when to cut and run. There are other games out there, other no-monthly-charge games even, which may be more suited to some folks. What we know so far: A new chapter will be out approximately every six months. If you are not happy now, do you think you'll be happy in a year when chapter 4 is out? Or do you think you'll be here, still upset, posting that they should take more time on chapter 5? If it's the latter, you can save yourself a hundred bucks and a headache.

Personally, right now I can think of one hundred things I'd make better or implement if I could, but despite that I have zero complaints with the Guild Wars Franchise.

Hockster · Jun 07, 2006, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge Martinez

If you are not happy now, do you think you'll be happy in a year when chapter 4 is out? Or do you think you'll be here, still upset, posting that they should take more time on chapter 5? If it's the latter, you can save yourself a hundred bucks and a headache.

Quite possibly the best couple of sentences ever posted in these forums.

guppy · Jun 07, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

That's a really conditional statement however. It is like asking if 2006 wasn't a good year, can you see yourself happy in 2007? I can't predict the future, and I doubt that other people can either, and in that respect, whatever they release for ch. 3 and 4 and so forth is unknown. I find it very difficult to believe they will release another "faction" type chapter in the future. It really depends on what they decide to do with the future chapters and whether updates to the original game will follow.

All we can do is speculate (at best) about how the future chapters will be like based on what we have seen. A lot of times people mistake what complaining really is. It doesn't always mean your unhappy about everything. I still enjoy the game, thats why im still here, but it is ok for me to be unsatisfied with aspects of the game. That is what every healthy person should do, be able to enjoy what they play and keep an open mind to criticize what they feel can be improved. Unless its a perfect game

Xenrath · Jun 07, 2006, 11:14 AM // 11:14

From a business point of view, it's sales driven so ultimately the focus will probably be on future sales.

While it's important to keep the existing customer base happy, adding content/fixes to older chapters won't bring in any new sales - which means no money coming in! - which is what the company needs. From a purely business point of view it's understandable and necessary evil

If it were a subscription game such as WoW then there would be a more substantial reason for maintaining/adding content as people still pay every month for it, but it isn't and the model seems to be based off sales so that's one possibility.

Big_Iron · Jun 07, 2006, 11:57 AM // 11:57

The cold hard truth of it is that Anet will have to churn out chapters to make money since they don’t charge monthly fees. It’s the only way that they’ll be able to stay in business and keep the servers up and running. It is a business folks. They’re here to make money. I’d rather see more updates and less chapters too, but realistically, Anet will have to throw most of their resources into new content to keep the company running. The chapter idea seems like a good approach, but I’m beginning to wonder…unless they take the same approach as Valve in HL2. Smaller chapters that cost less so people are more willing to pay it. I wouldn’t mind investing in a new chapter every six months if it cost $20 to $30 (USD), but I won’t be able to afford $50 every six months for long.

Keji_Pelk · Jun 07, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53

All I want is an auction house and more storage and I will be happy. I like the new content every 6 months it's great. I can beat the game with 2 or 3 chars in that time and get most of the skills b4 I move on to more stuff. Sorrows furnace was a nice update but I spent more time waiting for it than I did playing it. It wasn't that great. Factions is basically a giant Sorrows furnace. The only good thing about Sorrows was that it was HARD. Now factions is hard so I could care less if we get content updates unless they give me an auction house. BTW good job fixing alliance battles.

Loviatar · Jun 07, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muse of Shadows

However, even with this it seems unlikely as Factions was supposed to have 1.5 years work behind it. .

a little linkie winkie please? (you dont have it do you)?

they said 1 year not 1.5 years.

one year staggered release on a 6 month schedule.

1.5 just doesnt fit that at all now does it?

Quantum Duck · Jun 07, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Guild Wars sold very well. Factions has been selling faster than Prophecies ever did. We'll see what happens when Nightfall (Assuming people are right about the name being from that copyright) shows up, but I predict plenty of sales regardless of whether any forum member or members consider it "flawed".

As for updates, it seems pretty dang silly to me to expect a game maker to just make more of a game for free after the fact. If they do, such as Sorrow's Furnace, that's pretty cool of them, but it's hardly an expectation. Content makers have to pay their bills somehow, and it takes a lot of professionals a lot of time to make good content. Personally, I prefer a chapter content model where I pay for exactly what I get, rather than paying per month and watching them add content when they feel like it. If I don't like the content of a particular chapter of Guild Wars, I'll skip it and wait for the next one. I don't have that option with pay per month games. And even if I buy them all, it still adds up to a bit less per month than my WoW subscription. (I only use WoW because I happen to have a subscription, and it costs me more than $50 per 6 months, I'm not trying to compare the two games in any other way)

Of course, they decided to see running an online game as a service rather than just a product dispite not charging for anything but content. They decided to add features to the engine that apply to everyone regardless of which/how many chapters they have paid for. They do this as a bonus service to make the game a better value overall, dispite the fact that they make no money specifically from these additions. And then people complain when they don't come fast enough. They said they're working on trade improvements. We don't need trade improvements, because in this game items really aren't all that important, but they're adding it because people want it anyway. But it's not happening as fast as people want it too, so ArenaNet is evil and breaks their promises.

It's a free bonus that's just part of the service they provide. I'd love to see another company that does more for their customers without charging for it than ArenaNet. The only thing they charge for so far is content, and they even set it up nicely so that you can skip an episode if you don't like the content without being any weaker than anyone else for the next episode.

I really can't understand what the problem is here. If you don't like Factions, you had plenty of chances to find out from people what it was about before you bought it. You'll get plenty of chances to see find out what Nightfall is about before you buy it. Buy the chapters you think have $50 worth of content you like in them. Don't buy the chapters that don't. You'll get your free updates when they finish them either way. They know you want them, so complaining about things they're already working on is completely pointless.

Loviatar · Jun 07, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

/could not agree more ^^^

SilentAssassin · Jun 07, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quantum Duck

Guild Wars sold very well. Factions has been selling faster than Prophecies ever did. We'll see what happens when Nightfall (Assuming people are right about the name being from that copyright) shows up, but I predict plenty of sales regardless of whether any forum member or members consider it "flawed".

As for updates, it seems pretty dang silly to me to expect a game maker to just make more of a game for free after the fact. If they do, such as Sorrow's Furnace, that's pretty cool of them, but it's hardly an expectation. Content makers have to pay their bills somehow, and it takes a lot of professionals a lot of time to make good content. Personally, I prefer a chapter content model where I pay for exactly what I get, rather than paying per month and watching them add content when they feel like it. If I don't like the content of a particular chapter of Guild Wars, I'll skip it and wait for the next one. I don't have that option with pay per month games. And even if I buy them all, it still adds up to a bit less per month than my WoW subscription. (I only use WoW because I happen to have a subscription, and it costs me more than $50 per 6 months, I'm not trying to compare the two games in any other way)

Of course, they decided to see running an online game as a service rather than just a product dispite not charging for anything but content. They decided to add features to the engine that apply to everyone regardless of which/how many chapters they have paid for. They do this as a bonus service to make the game a better value overall, dispite the fact that they make no money specifically from these additions. And then people complain when they don't come fast enough. They said they're working on trade improvements. We don't need trade improvements, because in this game items really aren't all that important, but they're adding it because people want it anyway. But it's not happening as fast as people want it too, so ArenaNet is evil and breaks their promises.

It's a free bonus that's just part of the service they provide. I'd love to see another company that does more for their customers without charging for it than ArenaNet. The only thing they charge for content so far is content, and they even set it up nicely so that you can skip an episode if you don't like the content without being any weaker than anyone else for the next episode.

I really can't understand what the problem is here. If you don't like Factions, you had plenty of chances to find out from people what it was about before you bought it. You'll get plenty of chances to see find out what Nightfall is about before you buy it. Buy the chapters you think have $50 worth of content you like in them. Don't buy the chapters that don't. You'll get your free updates when they finish them either way. They know you want them, so complaining about things they're already working on is completely pointless.

Best post I have seen in a LONG time !!

I fully agree.

guppy · Jun 07, 2006, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quantum Duck, although you make valid points, I believe your post has failed to account for the nature of the game. That I feel is why a sound post just has something that doesn't sound right to me.

The problem I see is that there seems to be a change in extremes of belief. Not that its something wrong or bad, it's just that there is no medium ground between this discussion. Starting from the top I suppose,

Your first comment stated that GW series would still sell despite a few bad words in these forums. I have to admit that it is very true that this discussion means very little to those future buyers of guild wars and towards Anet themeselves. However, that is not really the point of this thread and what forums really are meant for, is it? The whole point of forums are based on the idea that a community can interact outside the game on issues or specific game developments and voice their opinions. Good or bad, there are a variety of threads in these forums, and it really isn't a valid argument to say that forums don't account for much of the gaming community as the concerns still may or may not exist. It does not mean, at all, that the posts on the forums or issues people have with the game should be ignored or simply shot down if not many agree with it (whether or not it is seen in game or not).

Now to the core of the post, and the first line which really sounded fine, until I read it a few more times.

Quote:

As for updates, it seems pretty dang silly to me to expect a game maker to just make more of a game for free after the fact. If they do, such as Sorrow's Furnace, that's pretty cool of them, but it's hardly an expectation. Content makers have to pay their bills somehow, and it takes a lot of professionals a lot of time to make good content.

I think this is too generalized. There were many points made in this thread and this attempts to beat around the bush. The argument really isn't so much about expecting game updates as it is about improving the state of the game. The nature of the game, being a large online game, requires a dynamic environment and "fine tuning" as was put before in the thread. Here is where the problem really comes, since we don't pay to play, should we expect no updates on a game that really requires it in fact.

I will take an extreme as you have done so in your post, so do not assume that I do this as my own personal point of view, only to shed light on what I believe is important. Let us assume that we do get what what we pay for and there are no updates to the game. Similar to older online games (although they weren't online rpg's). In any case, the game isn't perfect, and really does require skill balances and changes to missions and different other updates that further improve the quality of the game.

Here is where I make my point. Let us assume that all updates from here on are stopped. New content only becomes availible specifically when new chapters arise. For the sake of arguement, lets not consider skill balances. Now, imagine a game like factions comes out again. One with some crucial bugs which need to be fixed. Without updates, have we really gotten what we payed for. Moreover, have we gotten what we expected?

Quote:

Of course, they decided to see running an online game as a service rather than just a product dispite not charging for anything but content. They decided to add features to the engine that apply to everyone regardless of which/how many chapters they have paid for. They do this as a bonus service to make the game a better value overall, dispite the fact that they make no money specifically from these additions. And then people complain when they don't come fast enough. They said they're working on trade improvements. We don't need trade improvements, because in this game items really aren't all that important, but they're adding it because people want it anyway. But it's not happening as fast as people want it too, so ArenaNet is evil and breaks their promises.

Going back to the original point, what I mean to show is that the nature of the game requires updates and fixes or the player base would not only dissapate, it may even be almost gone without returning customers. A LARGE majority of expansion games rely on returning customers. It is naive to believe that there is an unlimited market of gamers, and I think that Anet is fully aware that the player base is still very important. In fact, they have proved it too, simply with mini-pets. The issue largely has to do with returning customers.

So, asside from some crucial updates, and trying to keep the player base happy (not core players, simply the player base.. notice the distinction), we return to additional features. We have established (I hope) that updates are indeed required for a game such as this simply because it isn't perfect and to keep the player base happy, a dynamic game is needed (this isn't starcraft where everything is balanced and does not really need features). So do we deserve additional content. That isn't really a philosophy I follow. I believe that the question really should be based in a players perspective playing the game. Do they really need better trade, do they need to make the traders upgrade armor, and so on.. They in fact don't need to, but a lot of complaints are derived on a few core problems. Trade being an example of something that is starting to cause more and more people discomfort with the PvE aspect of the game.

Lets go ahead and ask a question that I feel is somewhat important. If I payed for factions, imagine that ch. 3 is out and I payed for that too.. well, I am almost fullfulling the pay to play idea, perhaps a little less than WoW, but am I not entitled to features and updates that other pay to play games provide? I really want someone to tackle this question, because does it justify that since others don't buy the optional stand alone's, I should not expect updates based on what I pay for? I mean you do essentially "buy new content" but is that all that I should expect for buying all the games and asside from game fixes, skill balances, will there be any importance on some issues that provide far better game play?

Comming back to where the problem is. There is no problem and there is. Just ask different people.

The point of this thread I believe is to tackle the issue if updates, that could provide a much happier player base and for those who will come back to other chapters, should be more vital in the progress of the guild wars series?

It is very easy to assume that we got what we paid for with chapters, did we get the same with factions? The problem people seem to be facing is whether to expect another buggy game that actually swamps the game developers from producing some quality updates that significantly improve gameplay and also help sales on that behalf. Is the production schedule too tight? If Ch. 3 ends up having so many bugs, I believe the general consencus may actually be that we don't get what we pay for because we have a game that is actually fully functional several months later.

On top of that, additional features that could be added are not and are based on a time frame of several months by which another chapter may come out and another excuse to not provide updates. A few months is in fact a large amount of time, and to those who do have the patience and will stick with the game through several months, then I don't believe most players can share that patience as they assume to get what they paid for at the time of purchase.

Small things go a long way, and although it is perfectly fine to assume that you got what you payed for (good for you), it is unreasonable to assume that a game such as this really doesn't need to keep the player base happy. I only wish people wouldn't generalize that trading in itself is all that needs to be changed (not even added!). There are side affects to having a poor economy and one side effect is spamming in local chat. Another issue about certain game balancing mechanics based specifically on pve with armor traders not yet providing an update to armor. Should players buy a new 15k armor set? Does this not tie into trading as it deals with the economy? That is only one aspect.

I don't feel comforted that major updates will come every 6 months when a new chapter is released. If that is the case, then I might as well pay to play and arrive with a more dynamic game. Does Anet have the resources to provide a dynamic game without comprimising future chapter development. This should be a key issue and if it isn't the case, then for keeping the player base happy, is months for updates really reasonable? especially if they can develop a new game in 1 year.

EDIT: I appologize, in regards to additional game content, I do not mean another SF, I mean more gameplay changes and features that improve the quality of the game. Not specifically more maps and missions and quests.